In the context of the implementation of the European project EDIFY_EDU, which is carried out under the ERASMUS-EDU-2021-PI-ALL-INNO-EDU-ENTERP program (European Education and Culture Executive Agency), and our effort to communicate with individuals in Greece who are knowledgeable about the principles of equality, diversity, and inclusion in the workplace, we had the opportunity to speak with Ms. Sofia Papadimitriou (Dr. jur. Munich)[1], an attorney at the Supreme Court of Athens, who is particularly experienced on a nationwide level in the legal application of anti-discrimination measures in businesses. The interview was conducted by Dr. Katsanta Danai, Executive staff of ACHADE and Project Manager of the EDIFY_EDU project, as part of the project implementation tasks.
In this interview, Ms. Papadimitriou discusses the challenges faced by women executives in positions of responsibility in businesses in Greece, the adaptation of our country to Directive (EU) 2023/970 concerning pay transparency and bridging the gender pay gap, and the actions taken to highlight the importance of raising awareness among small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in the field of inclusion and combating discrimination, with an emphasis on gender equality.
Question: Mrs. Papadimitriou, recently there is more and more discussion in our country (Greece) about a significant number of women who are in business leadership. Do you believe they lead successfully, so that this trend can continue in more businesses in the future?
“In the past, women, striving to establish themselves professionally and compete with men, were often forced to bypass the nature of their gender. Particularly when seeking a leadership position, due to prevailing stereotypical beliefs, they “had to” adopt certain characteristics to fit the leadership model, which had been structured and inspired by male prototypes: the omniscient, strict, inaccessible leader, often authoritarian and arbitrary… Nowadays, the modern leadership model bears other characteristics that are more aligned with the female nature: Active Listening – Empathy – Inspiration – Reward (4E).
In practice, it is easily demonstrated and supported by research that women in leadership and responsible positions inherently possess the triptych of so-called female empowerment: Confidence – Authenticity – Resilience (3A). They generally have the modern leadership characteristics: high emotional intelligence and empathy, communication skills that strengthen relationships among their subordinates and teams, enabling them to move cohesively towards common goals, quick reflexes for crisis management, etc. Disproving, unfortunately, the stereotypical perceptions that still persist, women in leadership positions increasingly possess digital and “green” skills, as well as a particular sensitivity to corporate issues related to the triptych: Environment – Society – Governance (ESG).
As for the benefits that arise, they are manifold… Enhancing the presence of women in corporate decision-making processes has, of course, a positive impact on the employment of women at the lower levels of the corporate hierarchy, as it contributes to improving their working conditions and terms (e.g., reducing the gender pay gap, increasing the employment rates of women at all levels of the corporate hierarchy, taking measures to prevent and more effectively address incidents of ethical and sexual harassment in the workplace, etc.). Furthermore, achieving balanced gender representation in leadership and responsible positions generally has a positive impact on business strategy and, secondarily, on the economy. In the aftermath of the COVID-19 crisis, this objective is more significant than ever, combined with the need to fully utilize the available “talent pool” of both women and men. It is widely recognized that the presence of capable women at the top of the hierarchy, together with equally capable male colleagues, improves corporate governance, enhances team performance, encourages innovation, and allows for decision-making that more reliably reflects social reality, with particular sensitivity to environmental and social issues. Relevant research has also shown that there is a positive relationship between gender diversity at the top management level and the financial performance and profitability of a company, resulting in long-term sustainable development.
Looking to the future, therefore, modern businesses that aim for growth and longevity must be convinced that gender equality in the workplace is an advantage and an investment. It is clear that innovation comes through diversity, not uniformity”..
Question 2: What measures is Greece taking to adapt to Directive (EU) 2023/970 on pay transparency and bridging the gender pay gap?
Answer:
Before answering your question, let me make some remarks to highlight the legislative rationale and regulatory need for issuing the new Directive (EU) 2023/970 on pay transparency, as we will refer to it for brevity. Gender pay equality is a regulatory obligation enshrined at international, European, and national levels. In practice, however, it is evident that the gender pay gap persists, with the numbers “speaking” for themselves. In 2020, the gender pay gap in the European Union stood at 13%, with significant variations among member states, as noted in recital 15 of the new Directive. Specifically, regarding Greece, the average monthly earnings of women corresponded to 86.7% in 2020 and 84.5% in 2021 of men’s wages, according to the European Institute for Gender Equality (EIGE, Index 2023). Additionally, based on a survey by the Hellenic Federation of Enterprises (SEV, July 2023) on the position of women in businesses in Greece, 51% of respondents believe there is no gender pay equality, with the percentage of men who believe there is equality being twice that of women (58% versus 29%)! The causes of the gender pay gap are numerous, with particular emphasis being placed, according to the new Directive, on the lack of pay transparency, due to which pay discrimination and biases based on gender either go unnoticed or, when suspected, are difficult to prove.
In this context, Directive (EU) 2023/970 marks a significant legislative initiative in the European Union’s equality policy. Concerning the subjective scope of application, the new Directive (EU) 2023/970 applies to all employees with a contract or employment relationship, both in the public and private sectors. Regarding pre-employment stage information, job applicants are also recognized as bearers of the right to information. Structurally and content-wise, there are two main pillars of the new Directive to achieve the goal of equal pay between men and women: (a) “PAY TRANSPARENCY” (Chapter II, Articles 5 – 13), and (b) “MEANS OF LEGAL PROTECTION AND ENFORCEMENT” (Chapter III, Articles 14 – 26).
To specifically answer your question, member states, including Greece, are required by June 7, 2026—when the compliance deadline expires—to take all necessary measures (legislative, regulatory, administrative) to:
- Facilitate employees’ access to information by establishing corresponding employer obligations. Depending on the request, the employee’s information may concern both the individual pay level and the average pay level by gender for categories of employees performing similar work or work of equal value.
- Establish a right to information for job applicants. This information concerns the initial pay for the position or its range and, where applicable, the provisions of the collective agreement that the employer applies concerning the position. It should also be explicitly provided that potential employers do not have the right to ask job applicants about their pay history.
- Establish employers’ obligation to submit data on the pay gap to the authority that will be established or designated as competent by member states. Indicatively, employers with 250 or more employees will be obliged to provide, from the time the Directive (EU) 2023/970 is transposed into Greek law and by June 7, 2027, and annually thereafter, data concerning the previous calendar year. A corresponding obligation (with variations in the timetable) is also provided for employers with fewer employees (Article 9).
- Specifically regulate the so-called “joint pay assessment” (Article 10), which employers are required to conduct in cooperation with employee representatives when the submission of data indicates an unjustified average pay difference of at least 5% between women and men in any employee category. As an additional condition, the Directive requires that the employer has not corrected this unjustified difference within six months from the date of submission of the pay data.
- Ensure affected employees have easily accessible procedures before competent authorities and national courts to protect their rights. To ensure a minimum level of protection and social upward convergence, the new Directive obliges member states to establish effective legal protection means, including the right to full compensation and procedural facilitations for affected employees (e.g., regarding the imposition of court costs and the shift of the burden of proof to employers), a minimum three-year limitation period for relevant claims, effective and proportionate penalties for employers that guarantee real deterrent effects, and special penalties in cases of repeated violations of the principle of equal pay, etc.
- Establish a competent authority for consistent and coordinated monitoring of the implementation of national measures transposing Directive (EU) 2023/970. The monitoring authority may also be part of an existing body or structure at the national level.
In the meantime, we are looking forward to the transposition into Greek law of Directive (EU) 2022/2041 on the minimum wage, which precedes in time (compliance deadline by November 15, 2024). A competent scientific committee has already been established since April 2024 at the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs, with a deadline to complete its work by October 31, 2024. Given the overrepresentation of women in low-paid positions, improving the adequacy of minimum wages is also expected to contribute to reducing the gender pay gap, as highlighted both in the explanatory memorandum (recital 10) and in the text of Directive (EU) 2022/2041 (see Article 5).
Question 3: The Directive (EU) 2022/2381 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 November 2022 “on improving the gender balance among directors of listed companies and related measures” must be transposed into national law by December 2024 and mainly concerns the obligation of implementation by listed companies, particularly large ones. However, the majority of Greek businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). Ms. Papadimitriou, do you believe that an “extension” of the Directive to smaller businesses is feasible, or do you think it needs to be applied to SMEs?
Answer:
You are correct in noting that Directive (EU) 2022/2381 obliges member states, including Greece, to issue and publish the legislative, regulatory, and administrative provisions necessary for compliance by December 28, 2024. As of March 2024, a 19-member Working Group has been established within the General Secretariat for Equality and Human Rights of the Hellenic Ministry of Social Cohesion and Family, with members representing the relevant Ministries of National Economy and Finance, Development, Labor and Social Cohesion, Justice, as well as the Capital Market Commission, the Labor Inspectorate, and the Ombudsman. The task of the Working Group is, initially, to study Directive (EU) 2022/2381 and then to recommend to the General Secretariat for Equality and Human Rights a draft law for its transposition and implementation into Greek law. According to information, it is expected that the Working Group will complete its work well before the compliance deadline.
Directive (EU) 2022/2381 sets two specific quantitative targets for gender balance in the Boards of Directors of companies covered by this Directive:
- Either 40% of non-executive board positions.
- Or 33% of all executive and non-executive board positions.
Companies falling under the scope of the Directive must comply with one of these targets by 28 December 2024.
The percentage of 40% or 33% (depending on the national legislator’s choice) that companies covered by the Directive must achieve by 30 June 2026. Otherwise, they will be subject to sanctions, which must in any case be effective, proportionate, and dissuasive, according to the commitment imposed by the Directive on the Member States.
However, unlike Directive (EU) 2023/970 on pay transparency, which has a broad scope of application, Directive (EU) 2022/2381, as correctly noted in your question, applies only to listed companies, specifically large ones domiciled in a Member State. In contrast, very small, small, and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) do not fall within the scope of the Directive. According to the legislative definition of the Directive, SMEs are companies that “employ fewer than 250 employees and have an annual turnover not exceeding EUR 50 million or an annual balance sheet total not exceeding EUR 43 million or, for SMEs having their statutory seat in a Member State which does not have the euro as its currency, the equivalent amounts in the currency of that Member State” (Article 3(8)).
As explained by the EU legislator in recital 27 of the Directive, “listed companies have particular economic significance, visibility, and impact on the market as a whole… The public nature of listed companies justifies them being subject to regulation to a greater extent in the public interest…”. Moreover, it was assessed that differences between Member States regarding legal requirements and self-regulation requirements for the composition of management boards can lead to practical complexities for listed companies operating at a cross-border level, especially in establishing subsidiaries or in cases of mergers and acquisitions (see recital 20).
“Of course, as we know, the Directives provide for a minimum level of protection in order to achieve the greatest possible convergence among Member States. Therefore, national legislators can establish more favorable regulations. I am able to inform you that the Legislative Drafting Working Group is studying the partial expansion of the scope of application beyond the large listed companies envisaged by Directive (EU) 2022/2381. In any case, however, the legislative proposal of the Working Group to the leadership of the Ministry of Social Cohesion and Family concerns the listed companies. In terms of percentage, it appears from the information available so far that the Working Group is leaning towards 33%.
Furthermore, for those listed companies remaining outside the scope of the new law, the minimum gender quota of 25% stipulated by the current law on corporate governance (Article 3(1)(b) of Law 4706/2020, Government Gazette A’ 136/17.07.2020) will continue to apply. It is worth noting, indeed, that this was an innovative law for its time, as it led to a significant increase in the percentage of women on the boards of listed companies. According to the European Gender Equality Index for Greece, in the second half of 2022, the proportion of women on boards was 24% (compared to the corresponding European percentage of 32.2%) and continues to increase. It is estimated that today it has reached approximately 27%, surpassing the legislatively required percentage according to current standards. However, the Greek percentage of women holding chair positions on boards is only around 4.5%, which corresponds to about half of the corresponding European percentage.
Regarding non-listed companies, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, which constitute the backbone of the Greek economy, the findings of the Hellenic Federation of Enterprises (July 2023) on the position of women in Greek business are not as encouraging. I should note that the survey recorded opinions and assessments of businesses and the public on four (4) significant dimensions of the issue of equality in the labor market: a) employment and wages, b) recruitment and professional development, c) benefits and company policies to enhance female employment, d) violence and harassment. Focusing on women’s participation in management and leadership positions, which is of interest here, the survey showed, among other things, that in 39% of companies, the percentage of women in leadership positions is less than 15%, and as for positions of responsibility, an impressive 11% according to the survey, do not trust a woman as head of a department or section of the company (!).
Based on the above, the concern you raise with your question is extremely serious and unfortunately still relevant… How can the glass ceiling be broken in small and medium-sized enterprises? The new Directive on balanced gender representation on boards of listed companies can have some influence, even though it does not include them in its scope. A first interpretive approach is given by the Union legislator itself, noting, among other things, in recital 27 of Directive (EU) 2022/2381: “… These companies [large listed companies] set standards for the broader economy as a whole, and their practices are expected to be followed by other forms of companies…”. Furthermore, for public companies falling within the scope of the Directive, the Union legislator states, in recital 36 of the Directive, that “… because of their nature, they are suitable to serve as a model for the private sector…”. It should be noted that the expiry date of Directive (EU) 2022/2381 is set for December 31, 2038, when the Commission, considering developments in gender balance in boards of directors by then, will re-evaluate the extension of the Directive’s duration or its scope, including non-listed companies, submitting a relevant report to the European Parliament and the Council. However, the common goal should be the fastest possible achievement of gender balance both on boards of directors and at individual decision-making levels throughout the economy, to avoid the need for extending or expanding the scope of the Directive.
In this direction, I would propose an updated statistical recording of the participation of both genders in positions of responsibility and leadership in small and medium-sized enterprises, in an organized, coordinated, and institutional manner. With the new Directive and the national law on integration as a model, it would also be appropriate for competent authorities and best practices to develop guidelines for small and medium-sized enterprises to increase the presence of women on their boards through self-regulation and specific voluntary commitments in this direction. After all, the issue of gender inequality, especially in leadership and responsibility positions, is multifactorial. Therefore, it cannot be addressed solely through mandatory rules. A holistic management approach is required.”
Question 4: At the European level, efforts are being made to highlight the importance of raising awareness among small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in the field of inclusion and combating discrimination, with an emphasis on gender equality. Do you believe that there are practices that can be implemented at the national level in SMEs?
Answer: “It is self-evident that besides the institutional framework, substantive policies and actions are required. Regarding the enterprises themselves, it is necessary to monitor the implementation of gender equality through modern management and governance systems, especially those concerning human resources. Continuous training also remains one of the most effective ways to empower women professionally. At international and European levels, there is increasing development of specially designed training programs aimed at empowering women in the workplace and advancing their professional development.
Further measures, such as flexible forms of work and teleworking, parental and special purpose leaves, additional maternity and paternity leave time, specific provisions for single-parent families, and reintegration programs after maternity leave expiration, constitute a bundle of policies and actions contributing to enhancing female employment and promoting female entrepreneurship. In this direction, businesses are facilitated by the institutional framework concerning the balance between professional and family life, as Directive (EU) 2019/1158 has already been incorporated into Greek law by Law No. 4808/2021 (articles 24-54 and corresponding articles 217 ff. of the Labor Code).
However, business initiatives alone are not sufficient and must be combined with public policies and corresponding actions for the entire society. Moreover, the implementation of any business measures to increase women’s employment presupposes corresponding (co)financing, as well as practical recognition of businesses implementing exemplary equality policies (e.g., development and promotion of the “Equality Mark”). In any case, the question you raise is extremely topical, as is the general concern it raises, given that the new National Action Plan for Gender Equality is pending completion following the expiration of the current plan (2021-2025), while the Council of Europe’s new strategy for Gender Equality 2024-2029, with its 6 priority axes, has already been almost finalized.
Primarily, however, the path to substantive equality constitutes a matter of continuous progress towards embedding a culture without discrimination, in order to activate human capital as a whole, without exclusions. And certainly, above all, it requires continuous effort to achieve, in practice, both WOMEN’S EMPOWERMENT (Self-confidence, Resilience, Authenticity) and WOMEN’S SOLIDARITY!!”
We warmly thank Ms. Sophia Papadimitriou for her time and for the valuable information she shared with us. We are confident that her journey will continue to inspire many people. Stay tuned for more interviews with people who make a difference, as well as for issues related to information on labor rights in the private sector.
[1] In connection with the theme of this interview, it is mentioned that Dr. Sophia Papadimitriou is, among other roles, a Scientific Collaborator at the Hellenic Investors’ & Traders’ Association – Athens Stock Exchange Shareholders’ Association (SEV), Coordinator of the Justice Group of ICC Hellas/ICC Women Hellas, founding member of the Athens Women Lawyers Association and Friends “ELENI KARYDI”, and member of the “Panathenaic Nationwide Women’s Organization”.
The interview was realized by Katsanta Danai – Project Manager at ACHADE
